Stories, science and secrets from the world’s brightest thought-leaders. Behavioral Grooves is the podcast that satisfies your curiosity of why we do what we do. Explanations of human behavior that will improve your relationships, your wellbeing, and your organization by helping you find your groove.
Episodes
Wednesday May 26, 2021
Wednesday May 26, 2021
Linnea Gandhi is one of our favorite people to talk with and we had the pleasure of welcoming Linnea back to Behavioral Grooves recently. We last spoke to her in 2018 when she confessed to having a crush on statistics (a crush she clearly still harbors!) Since that time though, she has made a significant contribution to the infamous new book Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Daniel Kahneman, Olivier Sibony and Cass Sunstein (https://amzn.to/3heyr5r). Linnea served as the chief of staff; project managing, researching and editing the groundbreaking work on the book. When we interviewed Olivier Sibony about Linnea’s contribution, he was glowing with compliments about her:
“it took someone as miraculously organized, helpful and smart, always positive and in a consistently cheerful, good mood. And I can't imagine anyone else on the planet who could have pulled this off, but Linnea did. So she's amazing.”
Linnea is a researcher, teacher, and practitioner of behavioral science in business settings. And she’s obsessed with error. Studying it, fixing it, and even embracing it – to enable better decisions by individuals and organizations.
Linnea is passionate about bridging the gap between behavioral science in academia and its application in the real world. She teaches decision science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, studies it as part of her PhD at the Wharton School of Business, and consults on it through her company, BehavioralSight (https://behavioralsight.teachable.com/). This foothold in both worlds, has given Linnea the expertise for her current project which sees her teaching the topic of noise in an “edu-tainment” online video course.
The tremendous new course (we got a sneak peak...it’s fantastic) is called Beyond Bias: How Noise May Be Drowning Out Your Decision Making Accuracy which is due to be published in June 2021. The course is purposefully designed for busy professionals who want to understand noise and how to mitigate it in organizations. Linnea and her team have meticulously planned the course videos so that they are short yet informative and entertaining. She is well aware that they are competing with Netflix for people’s attention!
Our conversation weaves in some endearing anecdotes about her personal experience of working with Kahneman, Sunstein and Sibony on the book. As well as some of the hurdles of working (and recording) from home that many of us can identify with from the last year. But Linnea’s passion for her work on noise and her enthusiasm for statistics is contagious. So much so that it has almost convinced Kurt to start reading about statistics in his spare time (almost!)
We hope you enjoy listening to Linnea’s work in behavioral science. At Behavioral Grooves, we are passionate about bringing you cutting edge interviews with the world’s best behavioral science practitioners, researchers and authors. If you would like to help support our work, please consider becoming a Behavioral Grooves Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves, we really appreciate the support.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Topics We Discuss With Linnea
(3:07) Speed Round
(6:39) About Linnea’s new course on NOISE
(16:45) Why humans don’t see easily see randomness
(19:58) Working behind the scenes on NOISE
(22:48) How did the authors first collaborate on NOISE
(26:53) What finally convinced Linnea to get a PhD
(36:12) Decision Hygiene and Linnea’s favorite technique
(41:20) Music
(43:20) Grooving Session
Links
“Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment” by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r
Statistics As Principled Argument https://amzn.to/3uhRU8c
Linnea’s Video Course on Noise (coming in June 2021) “Beyond Bias: How Noise May Be Drowning Out Your Decision Making Accuracy” https://www.behavioralsight.com/online-learning
Episode 224: Why Is Noise Worse Than Bias? Olivier Sibony Explains https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/noise-with-olivier-sibony/
Episode 38: Linnea Gandhi: Crushing On Statistics https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linnea-gandhi-crushing-on-statistics/
Daniel Kahneman https://amzn.to/2QQksId
Cass Sunstein https://amzn.to/3uj61Kp
Olivier Sibony https://amzn.to/3u8LBnp
Noise: How to Overcome the High, Hidden Cost of Inconsistent Decision Making https://hbr.org/2016/10/noise
Episode 176: Annie Duke on How to Decide https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/annie-duke-on-how-to-decide/
Tania Lombrozo (Explanations) https://psych.princeton.edu/person/tania-lombrozo
Mona Lisa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa
A Structured Approach to Strategic Decisions https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/a-structured-approach-to-strategic-decisions/
Duncan Watts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_J._Watts
Angela Duckworth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Duckworth
Episode 99: Katy Milkman: Behavior Change for Good https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavior-change-for-good/
Barbara Mellers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Mellers
Maurice Schweitzer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Schweitzer
Richard E. Nisbett “Thinking: A Memoir” https://amzn.to/341F4A4
Pareidolia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
Musical Links
Macklemore & Ryan Lewis “Thrift Shop” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK8mJJJvaes&ab_channel=MacklemoreLLC
Sunday May 23, 2021
Sunday May 23, 2021
NOISE is set to be the next behavioral science bestseller. Daniel Kahneman, Cass Sunstein and Olivier Sibony describe noise as the unwanted variabilities in our judgments. In our exclusive interview with co-author Olivier Sibony (https://oliviersibony.com/about/) we delve into the fundamentals of noise. What different types of noise are there? Where do we find noise? Why does bias get more attention than noise? And finally, Olivier’s favorite topic; how we can mitigate noise by using decision hygiene and actively open minded thinking.
Olivier Sibony is a professor, writer and advisor specializing in the quality of strategic thinking and the design of decision processes. Olivier teaches Strategy, Decision Making and Problem Solving at HEC Paris. He is also an Associate Fellow of Saïd Business School in Oxford University. Olivier’s research centers on improving the quality of decision making by reducing the impact of behavioral biases. He is the author of numerous articles in academic and popular publications, including Before You Make That Big Decision, co-authored with Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman.
Our interview with Olivier is, as I’m sure you will agree. absolutely mesmerizing. Learning about the extent of noise in our lives from Olivier and from the new book, is truly enlightening. As their cleverly crafted catchphrase says "wherever there is judgment, there is noise, and more of it than you think."
Thankfully, the brilliant team of authors have included lots of ways to combat the noise around us. And we know that our discussion with Olivier is just the first of many that we will have around this groundbreaking topic.
Behavioral Grooves strives to bring you insight and research from world-leading experts in behavioral science, like Olivier. And we do this without the use of paid advertising. If you would like to support our continued ad-free work, please consider becoming a Behavioral Grooves patreon by visiting https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves thank you.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Topics We Discuss
- (4:38) Welcome to Olivier Sibony and speed round questions
- (7:51) The difference between bias and noise
- (11:32) Why has bias received more attention than noise?
- (14:15) Where noise can be found?
- (22:32) What is Decision Hygiene?
- (26:35) How to implement mitigation techniques against noise?
- (29:32) Actively Open Minded Thinking and what it means for leadership and education
- (38:45) What are the different types of noise?
- (44:18) The role of moral philosophical foundations and noise
- (49:28) Music
- (54:06) Grooving Session and Bonus Track
Olivier Sibony’s Books
Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r
You're About to Make a Terrible Mistake: How Biases Distort Decision-Making and What You Can Do to Fight Them https://amzn.to/3u8LBnp
Links
Olivier Sibony https://oliviersibony.com/about/
Languedoc wine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languedoc-Roussillon_wine
Rhones Valley wine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh%C3%B4ne_wine
Dr Itiel Dror https://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucjtidr/
Apgar Checklist https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2015/10/the-apgar-score
John Maynard Keynes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes
Max Bazerman “Better, Not Perfect: A Realist's Guide to Maximum Sustainable Goodness” https://amzn.to/3f4vvqm
Bentham's Utilitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Kant's Deontological Approach https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-deontological/
Noise: How to Overcome the High, Hidden Cost of Inconsistent Decision Making https://hbr.org/2016/10/noise
Behavioral Grooves Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves
Musical Links
Yo-Yo Ma cellist “Bach Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prweT95Mo0
Billy Evans “My Foolish Heart” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2LFVWBmoiw
Keith Garrett “I Grew Up Today” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PerFVC6KbU
Oscar Peterson “C Jam Blues” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJhHn-TuDY
More Great Episodes Of Behavioral Grooves
Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/
Episode 211: A Thousand Thanks: A Lifetime of Experiments and Gratitude with AJ Jacobs https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-thousand-thanks-with-aj-jacobs/
Episode 204: How Shellye Archambeau Flies Like an Eagle https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shellye-archambeau-like-an-eagle/
Episode 176: Annie Duke on How to Decide https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/annie-duke-on-how-to-decide/
Episode 147: Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/
Episode 38: Linnea Gandhi: Crushing On Statistics https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linnea-gandhi-crushing-on-statistics/
Wednesday May 19, 2021
Wednesday May 19, 2021
Allison Zelkowitz seized the opportunity to use behavioral science at Save The Children to make a big impact on global projects. By building a world-first “nudge unit” within the organization, her story is an inspiring example of how application of behavioral science principles can make a real difference in the world.
Allison Zelkowitz is the Founder and Director of the Center for Utilizing Behavioral Insights for Children (CUBIC) https://www.savethechildren.net/cubic, part of the international nonprofit organization Save the Children. CUBIC is the first behavioural insights initiative or "nudge unit" in the world to focus on the most marginalised children’s rights and welfare. At CUBIC, they focus on nudging the behaviours and actions of decision-makers, educators, families and communities, so more children get the best possible start in life.
Ultimately, Allison is well aware that changing behavior isn’t about telling people what to do, it’s about facilitating ways for them to change: understanding the barriers and effectively removing them. The projects of CUBIC are not just inspiring, they are also life-saving. Projects such as
- Nudging children in Thailand to wear bicycle helmets,
- Encouraging breastfeeding in Laos, and
- Increasing playful teaching methods to enhance children’s learning in Bangladesh.
In our chat with Allison, she reveals the vast personal dedication that it took to enable CUBIC to be formed. We love that Allison first carved her interest in behavioral science by listening to podcasts in her spare time (Allison has since become a Behavioral Grooves Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves - thank you for your support!) But within the space of 14 months, her idea had grown into an international collaboration with other leading behavioral scientists, a huge fundraising effort, and eventually to the global launch of CUBIC in April 2020.
In this episode you will learn:
- (11:05) What inspired Allison to start CUBIC at Save The Children International.
- (15:03) Why just giving people good information doesn't change their behavior.
- (19:45) An overview of setting up a Nudge unit.
- (23:55) The steps Allison took to build CUBIC in 14 months.
- (30:18) About the current project in the Philippines texting parents to encourage them to positively engage with their children.
- (41:54) Upcoming project on increasing vaccination uptake in the global south.
- (43:59) Music Allison enjoys.
- (48:58) Grooving Session and Bonus Track.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Links
CUBIC - Save The Children International: https://www.savethechildren.net/cubic
Save The Children: https://www.savethechildren.org/?cid=Referral::POPUPwww.savethechildren.net::123199&utm_source=sciweb&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=member_popup
CUBIC: Save The Children initiative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCy9B-k2044
Eliud Kipchoge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge
United States Parachute Association: https://uspa.org/
Allison's Blog on Skydiving with Behavioral Science: https://www.patreon.com/posts/behavioral-in-32008134
Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves
Fadi Makki, Founder of Nudge Lebannon: https://nudgelebanon.org/our_team/fadi/
The Busara Center for Behavioral Economics: https://www.busaracenter.org/
Faisal Naru, OECD: https://www.oecd.org/gov/behavioural-insights.htm
Josh Martin, Ideas 42: https://www.ideas42.org/blog/incorporating-behavioral-science-cash-transfer-programs-changing-lives/
The Behavioral Insights Team: https://www.bi.team/
Dr Susanna Loeb, The Annenberg Institute, Brown University: https://annenberg.brown.edu/publications/one-step-time-effects-early-literacy-text-messaging-program-parents-preschoolers
The Lantern Group: https://lanterngroup.com/
Behavioral Alchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/
Musical Links
Hamilton Soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV78EPlNCZ5B1vHkRicCAdpbDqZ1DpLgM
Journey “Don’t Stop Believing”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs
Video for Allison’s wedding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD38az2cUsg
Other Episodes You Will Enjoy
Episode 202: How Chaning Jang Works Around Not Being WEIRD https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-chaning-jang-works-around-not-being-weird/
Episode 209: GAABS and Improving the Future for Every Applied Behavioral Scientist https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/improving-the-future-for-every-applied-behavioral-scientist/
Episode 190: Cornelia Walther on POZE: Pause, Observe, Zoom in, and Experience https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cornelia-walther-on-poze-pause-observe-zoom-in-and-experience/
Episode 168: The Stages of Grief, Pandemics and the Psychology of Protests with Nicole Fisher https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-stages-of-grief-pandemics-and-the-psychology-of-protests-with-nicole-fisher/
Episode 165: Shlomi Ron: Visual Storying Telling In a Time of Crisis https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shlomi-ron-visual-storying-telling-in-a-time-of-crisis/
Episode 146: Covid-19 Crisis: Mariel Beasley on Increasing Short Term Savings During the Crisis https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/covid-19-crisis-mariel-beasley-on-increasing-short-term-savings-during-the-crisis/
Episode 139: Iris Tzafrir: A Kind Word https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/iris-tzafrir-a-kind-word/
Episode 73: Terry Esau: Carbon Fiber Therapist https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/terry-esau-carbon-fiber-therapist/
Episode 19: The Teaspoon Hustle – Part 1 with Rob Burnet https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-teaspoon-hustle-part-1-with-rob-burnett/
Episode 20: The Teaspoon Hustle – Part 2 with Rob Burnet https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-teaspoon-hustle-part-2-with-rob-burnett/
Episode 221: Donating Our Money Is Irrational, So Why Do We Do It? Tim Kachuriak Explains Our Motivations https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-we-donate-our-money/
Episode 1: Behavioral Grooves 1: James Heyman, Phd https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavioral-grooves-1-james-heyman-phd/
Episode 222: How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/
Sunday May 16, 2021
Sunday May 16, 2021
In this episode, we are delighted to welcome Shankar Vedantam, host of the wildly popular podcast, Hidden Brain and esteemed author of the new book Useful Delusions (https://amzn.to/2PUkzlv).
Before reading Shankar’s book and interviewing him for this podcast we were, as Shankar describes himself, card-carrying rationalists. We were firmly in the camp of believing rational, scientific findings and believing that lies and deception are harmful to ourselves and to our communities. However, Shankar walks us through a compelling argument, that paradoxically, self-deception actually plays a pivotal role in our happiness and well-being.
In our discussion with Shankar we cover:
- (6:38) Speed round questions.
- (11:04) The difference between self delusions being useful and being harmful.
- (16:23) How nations are a delusional construct.
- (23:00) Awareness of self-delusions and how daily gratitudes can shift our perspective of the world.
- (25:56) Shankar’s personal story of delusional thinking.
- (29:58) The role emotions play in our mood and delusions.
- (35:23) How avoidance of delusional thinking is a sign of privilege.
- (37:30) Why our perceptions play an important role in understanding delusions.
- (44:36) Shankar’s unique approach to conspiracy theories.
- (52:28) What music Shankar has been listening to during COVID.
- (52:15) Grooving Session and Bonus Track with Kurt and Tim.
We really hope you find Shankar’s unique insight on how delusions are useful as compelling as we did. If you’re a regular Behavioral Grooves listener, please consider supporting us through Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves). Thank you!
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Books
- Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain https://amzn.to/2PUkzlv
- The Hidden Brain: How Our Unconscious Minds Elect Presidents, Control Markets, Wage Wars and Save Our Lives https://amzn.to/3e1qgWY
Links
Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r
Richard Dawkins https://richarddawkins.net/
Mahabharata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon
Other Episodes We Talk About
The Myth of the “Relationship Spark” with Logan Ury (featuring a guest appearance by Christina Gravert, PhD): https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-myth-of-the-relationship-spark-with-logan-ury-featuring-a-guest-appearance-by-christina-gravert-phd/
Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/
Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/
George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/
Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/
John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-dante-coffee-and-the-unconscious-mind/
Linda Thunstrom: Are Thoughts and Prayers Empty Gestures to Suffering Disaster Victims? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-thunstrom-are-thoughts-and-prayers-empty-gestures-to-suffering-disaster-victims/
Wednesday May 12, 2021
Wednesday May 12, 2021
Tim Kachuriak is the founder and Chief Innovation and Optimization Officer for NextAfter (https://www.nextafter.com/), a fundraising research lab and consulting firm that works with businesses, nonprofits, and NGOs to help them grow their resource capacity.
By his own admission, Tim is not a behavioral scientist, but what we love about Tim’s work is that he is using knowledge and research from the world of behavioral science and applying it to improve the efficiency of gift giving for nonprofit organizations. And not only does he use behavioral science techniques, he tests the theories in the nonprofit sector and generously publishes the findings on the NextAfter website (https://www.nextafter.com/research/).
In our conversation with Tim, he underscores the need for thinking about value proposition, a term widely used in the digital marketing world, but rarely thought of in terms of nonprofit organizations. He argues that potential donors are constantly weighing up the perceived value vs. the perceived cost of donating their money.
Tim also brings up the idea of reducing friction for donors: how can the giving experience be improved to make donating money a more seamless transaction. And we couldn’t help but see the parallels with the infamous new behavioral science book NOISE coming out later this month (Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment (https://amzn.to/3heyr5r) by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021).
There are many reasons why we donate to nonprofits; emotional reward, belonging, anger, guilt (or as Tim positively reframes it - gratitude!). Understanding these motivations is a huge part of Tim’s work and why, as behavioral scientists, we are fascinated to understand the research he has conducted around donations.
Edit
Hey groovers, just wanted to let you know that somehow, at 29:28 mins of the podcast we ended up cutting Tim’s response to the Susan G Komen question and can’t find it on the cutting room floor…sorry about that.
What he answered was that it is important to look at the scale that these organizations work at and that sometimes spending 50% on marketing to raise a $100 million is more effective and can drive a larger change than only spending 10% on marketing, but only raising $10 million. We then went in and asked about how the pandemic has impacted giving.*
We hope you enjoy our discussion with Tim Kachuriak and if you are a regular Behavioral Grooves listener, perhaps you feel motivated to donate to our work by becoming a Behavioral Grooves Patreon Member (https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves).
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Topics
(0:06) Introduction to our guest, Tim Kachuriak
(3:50) Speed Round Questions
(5:57) Why do People Give?
(9:41) The Principle of Reciprocity
(12:10) Effective Messaging and Value Proposition
(22:25) Reducing Friction
(34:48) Music
(40:27) Grooving Session
(58:44) Bonus Track
Links
NextAfter (https://www.nextafter.com/)
NextAfter Research To Grow Generosity (https://www.nextafter.com/research/)
Institute for Sustainable Philanthropy (https://www.philanthropy-institute.org.uk/)
Roger Dooley: Friction and Engagement (https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/roger-dooley-friction-and-engagement/)
Susan G. Komen (https://www.komen.org/)
Dan Pallotta, TED - The Way We Think About Charity Is Dead Wrong (https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallotta_the_way_we_think_about_charity_is_dead_wrong?language=en)
John Hopkins University, Coronavirus Resource Centre (https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/)
Rotary Club (https://www.rotary.org/)
Salvation Army (https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/)
Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment (https://amzn.to/3heyr5r) by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021
Phish, Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City on 10.30.2010 (https://phish.net/setlists/phish-october-30-2010-boardwalk-hall-atlantic-city-nj-usa.html)
Behavioral Grooves Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves)
Musical Links
Billy Joel “Scenes from An Italian Restaurant” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxx8IWIvKg0)
Phish “Whole lotta love” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6XcIOGWUhY)
Other Episodes We Talk About
Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin (https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/)
Linda Thunstrom: Are Thoughts and Prayers Empty Gestures to Suffering Disaster Victims? (https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-thunstrom-are-thoughts-and-prayers-empty-gestures-to-suffering-disaster-victims/)
Sunday May 09, 2021
Sunday May 09, 2021
Our guest, Jon Levy, is arguably one of the most influential behavioral scientists in the world. Over 10 years ago, Jon founded The Influencers Dinner, a secret dining experience for industry leaders ranging from Olympians, Nobel laureates, executives, to musicians. Over the course of the last decade, these dinners have developed into a wide community of influential people.
Our opening speed round with Jon did not disappoint. We learn his unique perspective on which Star Trek Captains was the best, and the surprising answer to who his dream guest was at one of his dinners.
In our discussion with Jon, he shares the secrets behind his influential approach: what motivated him to start this novel idea, how he developed it and the key steps behind the ongoing success of the community that he has curated.
Jon’s second book, “You’re Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence” https://amzn.to/2RmlUlA is released on May 11, 2021. Which follows his hugely successful first book: “The 2 AM Principle: Discover the Science of Adventure” https://amzn.to/3eS3p0m. We had the privilege of previewing his latest book for this interview and we were blown away by Jon’s unique approach to cultivating human connections through trust and community.
Of course, we discuss what music Jon has been listening to at home and we are surprised to learn what has recently sparked his musical interest. Jon has found that through his Influence Dinners, he has hosted a lot of his childhood pop idols, which he still enjoys listening to.
Thanks for listening and thank you for taking a minute to join the others who have already left us a review.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Jon Levy's Books
You're Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence https://amzn.to/2RmlUlA
The 2 AM Principle: Discover the Science of Adventure https://amzn.to/3eS3p0m
Links
Jon Levy https://www.jonlevytlb.com/
Peter Cullen (voice of Optimus Prime) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Cullen
James T. Kirk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_T._Kirk
Jean-Luc Picard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Picard
Neil deGrasse Tyson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson
Oprah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oprah_Winfrey
Beyonce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonc%C3%A9
Sir Richard Branson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Branson
Stephen Hawking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking
Disney https://www.disney.com/
Mark Zuckerberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg
Nicholas Christakis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Christakis
James H. Fowler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Fowler
The Spread of Obesity in a Large Social Network over 32 Years
Christakis and Fowler (2007) https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa066082
Nike Run Club https://www.nike.com/gb/nrc-app
Bill Nye the Science Guy https://billnye.com/
Parkour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour
The Daily Show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Show
The New York Times: Want to Meet Influential New Yorkers? Invite Them to Dinner
SNVTA - Ventral tegmental area of the brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventral_tegmental_area
Davos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davos
Bill Gates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates
Angela Merkel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel
My Octopus Teacher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher
United States Navy SEAL selection and training https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEAL_selection_and_training
The IKEA Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect#:~:text=The%20IKEA%20effect%20is%20a,of%20furniture%20that%20require%20assembly
Common Biases & Heuristics https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit?usp=sharing
Brené Brown https://brenebrown.com/about/
Adam Grant https://www.adamgrant.net/
Behavioral Grooves Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves
Musical Links
Bridgerton Soundtrack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rowHZd7-F1U&ab_channel=LoopedSongs
Vitamin String Quartet “Thank u, next” (Ariana Grande) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmljfYBkGVg
John Williams “The Imperial March from The Empire Strikes Back” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7HF4JG1pOg&list=PL2yW2adfehiV0-wSa784KIT1ZJ5_YEVjd&index=2&ab_channel=JohnWilliamsVEVO
Tribe Called Quest “Electric Relaxation“ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHRnvjCkTsw&ab_channel=TribeCalledQuestVEVO
Biggie Smalls (The Notorious B.I.G.) “Big Poppa” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phaJXp_zMYM
Maroon Five “Sugar” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09R8_2nJtjg&ab_channel=Maroon5VEVO
98 Degrees “I Do (Cherish You)” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09R8_2nJtjg&ab_channel=Maroon5VEVO
Cowboy Junkies “Sweet Jane” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9nN3G2CSg&t=173s
The Tragically Hip “Ahead by a Century” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE2joQsWXJg
Topics
(4:46) Speed Round Questions
(9:03) Power vs Influence
(13:00) Why do we want influence?
(20:21) Jon discusses his new book
(25:41) Jon became influential
(32:11) How to create a community
(37:03) How trust is made and how to trigger it
(41:00) Music
(1:13:11) Bonus Track and Groove Idea
Other Episodes You’ll Enjoy
Dessa: The Attention Shepherd On The Curious Act Of Being Deeply Human (Episode 208) https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dessa-being-deeply-human/
Mapping the Influence of Corporate Cultures – Silke Brittain (Episode 12) https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/mapping-the-influence-of-corporate-cultures-silke-brittain/
Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin (Episode 50) https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/
Sunday May 02, 2021
Sunday May 02, 2021
In this episode we are thrilled to be discussing our two favorite topics: human behavior and music. We learn that music, more than any other activity, can help lift our mood, during COVID. Our guests Pablo Ripollés PhD and Ernest Mas Herrero have spent years studying how the brain responds to rewards, learning and memory. Early in the pandemic, they decided to conduct research on a long list of activities that people were doing at home to manage their stress and increase the pleasure in their lives. While a number of the activities were found to help with mental health, the research overwhelmingly showed that engaging with music was the best way to lift your mood.
We have a really engaging conversation with Pablo and Ernest about their research findings on wellbeing and music. They believe that because listening to music is a passive activity and is so accessible, or “fun and free” as they call it, everyone can experience pleasure from it. And it’s not just listening to music; dancing, singing or playing music are all beneficial. We also learn that the best type of music to engage with is whatever music you really enjoy: “It will be beneficial as long as it is pleasurable.”
The questionnaire Pablo and Ernest discuss in the podcast is the Barcelona Music Reward Questionnaire http://brainvitge.org/z_oldsite/bmrq.php. It will take you only a few minutes to find out about your individual sensitivity to musical reward. And you can also read Pablo and Ernest’s full research article: “Rock ’n’ Roll but not Sex or Drugs: Music is negatively correlated to depressive symptoms during the COVID-19 pandemic via reward-related mechanisms” https://psyarxiv.com/x5upn/.
Listen in to find out more from Pablo and Ernest about how music can benefit your mental wellbeing. And If you’d like to support the work we do at Behavioral Grooves bringing you interesting research insights, please consider becoming a Patreon member at https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Topics
(0:06) Introduction
(5:20) Speed Round Questions
(8:44) Research Insights with Pablo and Ernest
(36:50) Grooving Session
(50:26) Bonus Track
Musical Links
Dropkick Murphys https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcIRZxNH7xcEt1fu4pfqFRg
Rumba https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrsK48Bp6T8
Catalan music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjJnF95TWN8
Zoo https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBh82sG2OKv1J6Ij43mdFiw
Depeche Mode https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCM-CWGUijAC-8idv6k6Fygw
Aretha Franklin “Think” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYnevHibaI
Links
“Rock ’n’ Roll but not Sex or Drugs: Music is negatively correlated to depressive symptoms during the COVID-19 pandemic via reward-related mechanisms” Herrero et al (2020): https://psyarxiv.com/x5upn/
“Neural correlates of specific musical anhedonia” Martínez-Molina et al (2016): https://www.pnas.org/content/113/46/E7337
Pablo Ripollés: https://as.nyu.edu/faculty/pablo-ripolles.html
Ernest Mas Herrero: https://orcid.org/0000-0002-3607-8489
Jamón ibérico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam%C3%B3n_ib%C3%A9rico
Lionel Messi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi
Michael Jordan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan
Roger Federer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer
“Goal Gradient Theory” Kivetz et al (2006): https://home.uchicago.edu/ourminsky/Goal-Gradient_Illusionary_Goal_Progress.pdf
Robert Zatorre, PhD https://www.mcgill.ca/neuro/robert-zatorre-phd
Neomi Singer, PhD https://neuroscience-innovation.org/music-to-my-brain-neomi-singer
Laura Ferreri, University of Lyon https://emc.univ-lyon2.fr/laura-ferreri-785895.kjsp
Michael McPhee, NYU https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/people/michael-mcphee
Hedonia and anhedonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia
Barcelona Music Reward Questionnaire http://brainvitge.org/z_oldsite/bmrq.php
Spotify https://www.spotify.com/us/
The Ikea Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect#:~:text=The%20IKEA%20effect%20is%20a,of%20furniture%20that%20require%20assembly
The Singing Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution
Music of the Civil Rights Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_songs
Baroque Music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApSoNBu2wt8
Agatha Christie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Christie
Other Podcast Episodes
Dessa: The Attention Shepherd on the Curious Act of Being Deeply Human”
https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dessa-being-deeply-human/
The Counterintuitive Persuasion of The Catalyst with Jonah Berger
https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-catalyst-with-jonah-berger/
Chris Matyszczyk: Listening to Music While You Work
https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/chris-matyszczyk-listening-to-music-while-you-work/
Covid-19 Crisis: Emotional Impact of WFH with Liz Fosslien
https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/c-19-crisis-emotional-impact-of-wfh-with-liz-fosslien/
Jonah Berger episode: “The Counterintuitive Persuasion of The Catalyst with Jonah Berger” https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-catalyst-with-jonah-berger/
Sunday Apr 25, 2021
Sunday Apr 25, 2021
Our guest this week, Sandra Matz PhD exposes the truth behind our online presence. In our conversation, Sandra reveals that with simple analytics, the digital footprints we leave behind online (our Facebook Likes, our credit card transactions, our Google Map searches) add up to paint a very revealing picture of our personality and state of mind.
Sandra Matz PhD is an associate professor at Columbia Business School. She takes a Big Data approach to studying human behaviour. Her methodologies use psychology, computer science and data collection to explore the relationships between people’s psychological characteristics and their digital footprints.
Sandra’s work has been published in top-tier journals such as Psychological Science and the American Psychologist, and has attracted worldwide media attention from outlets like the Independent, the BBC, CNBC, the Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune, and the World Economic Forum.
Our discussion delves into Sandra’s experience around social media profiles, digital ethics, data privacy and our understanding of informed consent. As always we find out about our guest’s musical taste but this week we even find out what our musical preferences can reveal about our personality and social identities.
We hope you enjoy our discussion with Sandra Matz PhD, and if you do, please leave us a quick review or join our Patreon team at https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves.
Topics
3:04 Welcome to Sandra Matz PhD and speed round questions
4:52 Discussion about Sandra Matz’s Research
52:32 Grooving Session
1:10:37 Bonus Track with Kurt
Links
Sandra Matz https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/cbs-directory/detail/sm4409
Cambridge Analytica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica
Cass Sunstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein
GDPR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation
Kate Crawford, NYU https://ainowinstitute.org/about.html
Helen Nissenbaum, Cornell https://nissenbaum.tech.cornell.edu/
Tory Higgins, Shared Reality: What Makes Us Strong and Tears Us Apart https://amzn.to/3aywWdW
SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/
Brene Brown https://brenebrown.com/
Steve Bannon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bannon
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves
Behavioral Grooves @behavioralgroov https://twitter.com/behavioralgroov
Kurt @motivationguru https://twitter.com/motivationguru
Tim @THoulihan https://twitter.com/THoulihan
Mary @BeSciMary https://twitter.com/BeSciMary
Musical Links
Taylor Swift https://www.youtube.com/user/taylorswift
Justin Bieber https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIwFjwMjI0y7PDBVEO9-bkQ
Bob Dylan https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnRI0ay61tY-fKYzzB3fCnw
Britney Spears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-u5WLJ9Yk4
Coldplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDPM_n1atn2ijUwHd0NNRQw
ACDC https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB0JSO6d5ysH2Mmqz5I9rIw
Lady Gaga https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNL1ZadSjHpjm4q9j2sVtOA
Wednesday Apr 21, 2021
Wednesday Apr 21, 2021
Research is showing that there are four broad groups of people who are the most vaccine hesitant:
- African Americans
- Latinos
- Women between the ages of 20 and 36
- Rural Americans and Republicans
Many of us have a family or friend who feels hesitant about the vaccination. In this episode, Kurt and Tim address how you can have a positive conversation with them, using proven behavioral science techniques.
Compassionate curiosity
- Listen with compassion
- Understanding motivations
- Be genuine with curiosity
Leverage the right messenger
- Framing what you’re going to share
- Think about their perspective
- Find an authority figure who they respect
- Trumpcine
The Message
- Change the social norm
- Being able to take our masks off “Take a shot, take off your mask”
- Personalise the message
Links
Morgan Freeman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Freeman
Kwame Christian https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/
Steve Martin & Joe Marks: BG episode
https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/steve-martin-and-joe-marks-the-messenger-is-the-message/
Robb Willer, Stanford University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robb_Willer
Donald Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump
Ivanka Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanka_Trump
Ted Cruz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Cruz
Frank Luntz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz
Robert Cialdini https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/
The Petrified Forrest https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-shaping-us/201909/the-petrified-wood-principle
Katy Milkman https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-phd-using-behavior-change-for-good/
Surfacing norms to increase vaccine acceptance https://psyarxiv.com/srv6t/
Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Sunday Apr 18, 2021
Sunday Apr 18, 2021
Dr. Melanie Green is a professor at the University of Buffalo. She joined us on the podcast to explain how the power of a compelling narrative, including the effects of fictional stories, can be used to change beliefs and attitudes. Her theory of "transportation into a narrative world" focuses on how immersive storytelling is a mechanism of narrative influence.
It was an in-depth conversation that explored concepts around how stories move us, the power of narrative to affect both cognitive and emotional feelings, and how restorative narratives can be used to help heal communities after disasters. We touch on the psychological response of reactance, the appeal of conspiracy theory stories and the elements needed to create a compelling story.
We also introduce - in a slightly more proper fashion - our production and research assistant, Mary Kaliff. We are excited to introduce Mary to our listeners and hope you will welcome her with a happy greeting on social media!
Finally, no episode of Behavioral Grooves would be complete without understanding our guest’s musical tastes. Melanie’s upbringing in Gainesville, Florida influenced her lifelong love of music, in particular the hometown hero, Tom Petty. She’s also a fan of James Taylor, which delighted Tim. More recently, Melanie’s house is often filled with the sound of the Hamilton soundtrack, thanks to her children’s love of the musical, which delighted Kurt. So, it was wins all around.
We hope you enjoy our conversation with Melanie and if you like it, please jump down to the bottom of your listening app and share a quick rating or a short review with us. It goes a long way in helping others decide if they should listen to Behavioral Grooves.
Topics
0:07 Introduction
1:00 Hello from Mary Kaliff
3:46 Welcome and Speed Round with Melanie Green
7:44 Reactance and empathy
16:25 What makes a good story?
22:26 Storytelling in different mediums
27:12 Parasocial Interaction
33:10 Storytelling for social good
38:50 Conspiracy Theories
43:07 Melanie’s music and playlist
47:30 Grooving Session
Quotes
(14:13) If you do have a story that's not representative, the danger of it kind of having an undue influence on people's thinking and decision making is, I think, a real one, especially with something consequential, like these medical decisions.
(18:21) the way that stories can inform us and change our minds, is through this process of being immersed in them.
(31:17) And so a story can be a really nice kind of way of summarizing and illustrating the guiding principles maybe that people want the organization to follow
(33:37) restorative narratives tell those stories, you know, how people move from something bad to kind of come back to a better place.
Social Media
Tim @THoulihan
Kurt @motivationguru
Mary @BeSciMary
Other Content
To listen to more podcasts about narratives and messages why not delve into these episodes:
https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/steve-martin-and-joe-marks-the-messenger-is-the-message/
https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-sweeney-everything-is-a-story/
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Links
Melanie Green: https://www.buffalo.edu/cas/communication/faculty/green.html
The Game of Thrones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones
Story telling Mirrors in the Brain: https://www.michaelharvey.org/new-blog/2019/12/29/storytelling-mirrors-in-the-brain
Victoria Shaffer, PhD: https://psychology.missouri.edu/people/shaffer
The Bible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
The Koran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran
The Bhagavad Ghita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita
Pamela Rutledge: https://www.pamelarutledge.com/
Guy Schoenecker: https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/12/07/life-story-guy-schoenecker/
BI WORLDWIDE: https://www.biworldwide.com/careers/
Common Biases & Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit?usp=sharing
Jon Levy: https://www.jonlevytlb.com/
Mirror Neurons: Why good stories provoke empathy and connection (Kyle Pearce) https://www.diygenius.com/mirror-neurons/
Musical Links
Bruce Springsteen “Fire”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5PoIrcyd34
“Hamilton” soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPSWZUExZ8M
James Taylor “Never Die Young”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbGrD4hxoBI
Traveling Wilburys “End of the Line”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMVjToYOjbM
Tom Petty “Don’t Fade on Me”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKUBlwVgVYc