Exercising your courage muscle every day and pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, can have remarkable effect on your mindset and really influence those around you. Pushing through the uncomfortable feeling of simply talking to a stranger, or bravely climbing a ladder to clean your gutters, can make you more prepared for the scary moments in life that you can’t control. For instance, you’ll be more likely to speak up at work when someone says something inappropriate.


Our guest on this episode has transformed his own life by pushing himself out of his comfort zone everyday. And he is passionate about helping others spark this change in themselves. Scott Simon was a shy, quiet child who was once told by a music teacher that he should just mime the words in a school concert. Scott continued to feel invisible until a life-changing moment, years later, on a flight to Tel Aviv. He shares this heartwarming story of how he embraced a new way to live, in this very personal interview.


Scott Simon is a happiness entrepreneur, founder of the Scare Your Soul courage movement, and the author of the book Scare Your Soul: 7 Powerful Principles to Harness Fear and Lead Your Most Courageous Life. We discuss how we can embrace fear rather than trying to overcome it, the ways to stay motivated when we encounter failure, and the proven benefits of meditation and daily gratitude.


One of the big takeaways from this podcast with Scott is that scaring yourself doesn’t need to involve jumping out of a plane to overcome your fear of heights. In fact, Scott advocates for the much less dramatic, but more effective approach of consistency. Climbing a ladder to clean your gutters every day for a week is much more likely to help you overcome your fear of heights than launching yourself out of an airplane. Small, daily incremental steps outside of your comfort zone are what can have a ripple effect on your wellbeing. And when we improve our own wellbeing, those around us start to notice which, in turn, can have a positive effect on the world.


As a starter, you could overcome you fear of writing a podcast review! Jump onto the platform where you listen to Behavioral Grooves Podcast, and write a quick summary of why you listen. Thank you!



(3:18) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:14) What does it mean to scare ourselves every day?

(10:16) Scaring yourself with baby steps.

(15:03) Confronting the feeling of being uncomfortable.

(18:30) How practicing gratitude can transform your day.

(21:00) How to stay motivated even when we face failure.

(28:31) Why do people find meditation so hard?

(33:41) Heroes are born in small, everyday moments.

(37:43) How music was part of Scott writing his book.

(40:24) The way Scott scared his soul with singing.

(46:23) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on scaring our soul.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves



Limited time offer - 23% Discount for Brain/Shift Journal: https://www.100behaviors.com/products/the-brain-shift-journal-volume-1 

Scott Simon’s book, “Scare Your Soul: 7 Powerful Principles to Harness Fear and Lead Your Most Courageous Life”: https://amzn.to/3VEI65Y 

Episode 303, From Distracted To Focused: Nir Eyal’s Secrets On How To Be Indistractable: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nir-eyal-how-to-be-indistractable/ 

Episode 176, Annie Duke on How to Decide: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/annie-duke-on-how-to-decide/ 

Episode 247, Stanford Prison Experiment, 50 Years On: What Have We Really Learnt? With Dr Philip Zimbardo: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stanford-prison-experiment/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Musical Links 

76 Trombones “Music Man”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBQWsBiM5YY 

If you were sent an exclusive invite to a secret society, would you accept? If you knew only a few people in the world had been approached to join, would it spark a scarcity curiosity? What is more alluring: the society itself or the mere fact that it’s a secret?

Creating hype is the forte of our returning guest on this episode, Michael F. Schein. In our previous chat with Michael back in episode 212, he was telling us about his book The Hype Handbook: 12 Indispensable Success Secrets From the World’s Greatest Propagandists, Self-Promoters, Cult Leaders, Mischief Makers, and Boundary Breakers”. Since writing it, his marketing business has been inundated with clients wanting “in on” some hype! So as a unique way of creating hype, Michael has created a new secret society with only a few (secret) members.

Kurt and Tim spend time discussing the allure of a secret club - why they have been successful in the past, what continues to make them enticing, and how businesses can potentially use them to create hype. 

There is something that you can be part of that is definitely not a secret - the Behavioral Grooves Patreon membership. It’s no secret that we rely on the support of our loyal listeners to support the podcast and we truly appreciate everyone who chips in, thank you.



(5:16) How hype changed Michael’s marketing consultancy career.

(10:51) The details of Michael’s secret society.

(17:30) Are secret groups a tactic businesses should use?

(21:30) How marketing has evolved since the Alice Cooper Piccadilly Circus stunt.

(23:53) How Michael gets to work with only his favorite companies.

(32:02) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim.


© 2022 Behavioral Grooves


Michael F. Schein: https://michaelfschein.com/

Michael’s book “The Hype Handbook: 12 Indispensable Success Secrets From the World’s Greatest Propagandists, Self-Promoters, Cult Leaders, Mischief Makers, and Boundary Breakers”: https://amzn.to/3V5KVO9

Episode 212, Scrutinizing Hype: Powerful lessons from The Hype Handbook with Michael F. Schein: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/scrutinizing-hype-with-michael-f-schein/ 

Seven Society, University of Virginia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Society 

Jeff Walker “Launch: An Internet Millionaire's Secret Formula To Sell Almost Anything Online, Build A Business You Love, And Live The Life Of Your Dreams”: https://amzn.to/3V9Uv2m

Episode 226, The Power of Unity: Robert Cialdini Expands His Best Selling Book Influence: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cialdini-unity-in-influence/ 

The Lake Wobegon Effect: https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Lake_Wobegon_effect 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves


Musical Links

 The Dickies “Banana Split”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_wkEnLBvlE

The web was intended to be a way of creating genuine connections with others, but we’re all sadly familiar with the detrimental ways it can be used to spread misinformation. A team of experts at Prosocial Design Network is now using evidence-based behavioral insights to redesign social media interactions, to bring out the best of us online.

We’re honored to be joined on this episode by two of the designers of the Prosocial Design Network - John Fullot and Philipp Lorentz-Spreen. John Fallot is a user experience and graphic designer based in the New York City Metro Area. He co-founded the Prosocial Design Network with colleague Joel Putnam in late 2019, in order to better explore ways that the web could be optimized for prosocial behaviors.

Dr. Philipp Lorenz-Spreen is a research scientist based in Berlin, Germany. His work focuses on decision making online, and finding ways to improve online democratic discourse through environmental interventions.

There are certainly no silver bullets in the effort of minimizing the spread of misinformation. But this conversation gives us hope and provides some insights for everyone on how to approach social media in a better way.

We encourage you to check out the work of the Prosocial Design Network and browse through the interventions they are currently testing: www.prosocialdesign.org.



(3:34) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:41) Can we inoculate ourselves from misinformation online?

(8:38) Redesigning the world wide web against misinformation.

(13:28) Is misinformation on social media really threatening democracy?

(16:50) Asymmetry of power between the platform and the users.

(24:15) John and Phillip’s favorite Prosocial Design intervention: frictionless designs and "thank you" buttons.

(28:33) Which social media sites are being proactive with interventions?

(30:47) What is the obligation of behavioral scientists?

(37:11) What music do John and Phillip listen to?

(42:11) Grooving Session with Kurt on Tim on the Prosocial Design Network.


© 2022 Behavioral Grooves



Prosocial Design Network: www.prosocialdesign.org

Prosocial Design Network Slack: www.prosocialdesign.org/community

Prosocial Design Network donations: www.prosocialdesign.org/donate

Maxwell House commercial with Margaret Hamilton: https://youtu.be/tUnNDEygBjA\

Discord: https://discord.com/ 

Lorenz-Spreen, P., Lewandowsky, S., Sunstein, C.R. et al. How behavioural sciences can promote truth, autonomy and democratic discourse online. Nat Hum Behav (2020): https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-020-0889-7

Lorenz-Spreen, P., Geers, M., Pachur, T. et al. Boosting people’s ability to detect microtargeted advertising. Sci Rep (2021): https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-94796-z

Episode 10, Kal Turnbull Reddit superstar, Changing the World One View at a Time: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/changing-the-world-one-view-at-a-time-with-reddit-superstar-kal-turnbull/ 

Nir Eyal “Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products”: https://amzn.to/3XeWgMM 

Episode 303, From Distracted To Focused: Nir Eyal’s Secrets On How To Be Indistractable: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nir-eyal-how-to-be-indistractable/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon Page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Musical Links 


Tears For Fears “Everybody Wants to Rule The World”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGCdLKXNF3w&ab_channel=TearsForFearsVEVO 

Kat Cunning “Could Be Good”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpFh4dnKPKs 


Pashanim “Airwaves”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5wsXLmWhCM&ab_channel=PashanimNulldreinull 

Would you help change a stranger’s tire? How about if they offered you $20? Or, what if instead of money, they offered you some candy? 

We often think these types of exchanges are financial in nature - but this study explored how there is actually a different type of exchange going on here - a social exchange. When we help a friend move some furniture, invite friends over for dinner, help a stranger out who is in need - these are social exchanges in a social market, one that is separate from the financial market. And what’s even more interesting is that if you bring money into the social exchange, it falls apart.

James Heyman and Dan Ariely explored this phenomena in their landmark study called, “Effort for Payment: A Tale of Two Markets” and is the basis for Kurt and Tim taking a deep look in this Groove Track. 

Listen to find out the backstory to the study and the implications from the findings. You can also watch a special video recording of this Groove Track with Kurt and Tim on the Behavioral Grooves YouTube Channel.



Heyman, J., & Ariely, D. (2004). Effort for Payment: A Tale of Two Markets. Psychological Science: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.0956-7976.2004.00757.x 

Behavioral Grooves on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmH8St_nsA&ab_channel=BehavioralGrooves 

We find it easy to condemn wrongdoers, after they’ve been called out. But why do we often let unethical behavior occur around us, and not speak out? If we take a step back from the idea of there being one “bad apple”, we realize that with any wrongdoing, there is a collection of people who have been complicit in the behavior. Why is there so much fear about speaking up?

“We've created too much fear in speaking up, when in fact, there's so much value in avoiding harm in that process.“ ~ Max Bazerman

Our fascinating conversation with Max Bazerman aligns with the publication of his excellent new book, “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”. Our discussion is rich with insight, in particular we delve into the reason that we hold people, including ourselves, more responsible for errors of commission than omission. So how can we avoid errors of omission?

Max Bazerman is a world famous behavioral scientist. He is the Jesse Isidor Straus Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School and the Co-Director of the Center for Public Leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School. He is the author, co-author, or co-editor of twenty books and over 200 research articles and chapters. His awards include an honorary doctorate from the University of London and both the Distinguished Educator Award and the Distinguished Scholar Award from the Academy of Management. 

Over the years, Max has brought focus to the areas of decision making and ethics. Having been on the show before, we were delighted to welcome Max back to Behavioral Grooves once again. We hope you enjoy this episode of Behavioral Grooves. If you do, please write a review or share with a friend on Apple Podcasts. Thanks, listeners!



(3:16) What does it mean to be complicit?

(13:02) How errors of omission play an under-rated role in complicit behavior.

(18:21) How to move away from the idea that there is one bad apple?

(21:48) Unethical behavior goes unnoticed when it happens gradually.

(23:14) Do we legitimize unethical behavior in our leaders?

(25:51) Do employees need to be made to care about unethical behavior or do they need to demand ethical behavior from employees?

(27:26) When complicitors are engaged in illegal behavior.

(29:29) How can we hold people accountable for their bad behavior?

(37:33) Max’s personal story of being complicit.

(39:31) Are there new norms on data collection that can eliminate fraud?

(42:23) Dolly Chugh’s question for Max.

(46:11) How can we all become better people?

(49:05) What music does Max enjoy?


© 2022 Behavioral Grooves


Max Bazerman’s book: “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”: https://amzn.to/3UKjfNJ 

Episode 196, Living Happier By Making the World Better with Max Bazerman: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/living-happier-by-making-the-world-better-with-max-bazerman/ 

Episode 325, Dolly Chugh: Can You Unlearn History And Still Love Your Country? With Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dolly-chugh/ 

Bobo Doll Experiments: https://www.simplypsychology.org/bobo-doll.html 

Episode 247, Stanford Prison Experiment, 50 Years On: What Have We Really Learnt? With Dr Philip Zimbardo: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stanford-prison-experiment/ 

Heroic Imagination Society: https://www.heroicimagination.org/ 


Musical Links 

Bob Dylan “Blowin’ in the wind”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMFj8uDubsE

How we think about the world can drastically influence how we navigate through it. Cutting edge research proves that reframing our mindset to be more positive, even in the light of negative events, can significantly alter how our brain responds.

Discussing one of our favorite books of the year, author David Robson explains how our expectations can secretly meddle with almost every aspect of our lives. And by understanding their effects more thoroughly, we can unlock some powerful ways of living a more positive life.

This is a special episode, not only because we are talking with David Robson about his fantastic book “The Expectation Effect: How Your Mindset Can Change Your World”, but we are co-hosting this episode with one of our favorite podcasters, Christian Hunt of Human Risk Podcast. And just to top it off, the interview is recorded in none other than the iconic Abbey Road Studios in London!

Now that your expectations are set suitably high, we hope we don’t disappoint you with what we think is a fantastic episode of Behavioral Grooves! If Behavioral Grooves Podcast continues to meet your listening expectations please consider helping our ongoing production costs with a Patreon subscription. Many thanks!



(4:20) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:07) What is the expectation effect?

(8:09) Why the placebo effect doesn’t work on everyone.

(9:36) Our stress response and fluctuations in our cortisol levels.

(13:13) Negative stress mindset vs. positive stress mindset.

(15:00) Does the expectation effect change the way we feel?

(18:16) Is reframing a key component of the expectation effect?

(19:35) David’s journey into exploring expectations.

(22:26) How our mindset can contribute to the outcome of our diet or exercise habit.

(28:41) How marketing sets our expectations.  

(33:04) The brain is a prediction machine.

(36:32) Why critical thinking is a tool to manage our expectations.

(39:30) Are you a “good” sleeper or a “bad” sleeper?

(42:35) Being a pessimistic vs an optimistic person.

(45:45) The ethics of expectations - genetic testing.

(50:06) What music David is listening to and our expectations of musicians.

(55:47) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing The Expectation Effect.


© 2022 Behavioral Grooves



David Robson: https://davidrobson.me/ 

David Robson’s Book, The Expectation Effect: How Your Mindset Can Change Your World: https://amzn.to/3DVOXSD 

Episode 307, Groove Track | Mind Over Milkshakes: Why Expectations Matter A Lot: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/mind-over-milkshakes-groove-track/ 

Nocebo Effect: https://www.mindtools.com/blog/expert-interview-blog-david-robson/ 

Human Risk Podcast with Christian Hunt: https://www.human-risk.com/podcast 

Pygmalion effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect 

Penolepe Fitzgerald: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope_Fitzgerald 

Martin Amos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Amis 

Episode 155, John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-unconscious-mind/ 

Episode 75: Jonathan Mann: Integrating Behavioral Science into User Experience: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/jonathan-mann-integrating-behavioral-science-into-user-experience/ 

Episode 235: Make Choice Rewarding: Behavioral Insights in Marketing with Matthew Willcox: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/marketing-matthew-willcox/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves


Musical Links

Judy Collins “Spellbound”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnTh7TkFK1U 

Cheating is all around us. Is it on the rise? It appears to be so, but why? Christian Hunt, the founder and host of Human Risk Podcast, and Koen Smets, a London-based behavioral scientist, discuss the dodgy travails of the human condition using examples of cheating in chess, walleye fishing, cycling, and even among behavioral scientists. 

Join us for an invigorating discussion on why we cheat - and we all do - from Abbey Road Studios in London. 

Human Risk Podcast: https://www.human-risk.com/podcast 

Koen Smets on Medium: https://koenfucius.medium.com/

Fishing Scandal: https://youtu.be/xSta3wFK15Y 

Chess Scandal: https://www.npr.org/2022/10/05/1126915049/hans-niemann-is-accused-of-cheating-in-more-than-100-chess-games-hes-playing-tod 

Bike Race Scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_doping 

DataColada on Bad Behavioral Science: https://datacolada.org/98 



Learning ALL the parts of our country’s history can be very uncomfortable. Not just in the US, but around the world, there are usually very dark parts of our past that many of us would rather brush over because it doesn’t marry up with the sterilized version of what we were taught when we were younger.


While many of us are willing to take the next step, to unlearn our history and dismantle the unjust systems that our forebears built, few of us actually know how to go about it effectively. Our wonderful guest on this episode, Dolly Chugh admits to her own story of how she inadvertently taught her kids a polished version of history. And in her own personal reckoning around this experience, wrote the book that she found herself needing to read. And we are delighted to be talking with her about “A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with Our Past and Driving Social Change” because it is now a valuable tool for all of us.


Dolly Chugh is a Harvard educated, award-winning social psychologist at the NYU Stern School of Business, where she is an expert researcher in the psychology of good people. We’ve previously had Dolly on the show but we are thrilled to welcome her back to discuss her brand new book.



(2:07) How Little House On The Prairie led Dolly to write A More Just Future.

(9:24) Behavioral History - the new way of looking at the past?

(11:10) Why do we find it so difficult to talk about the dark parts of our history?

(14:08) How “dressing for the weather” can help us deal with our emotional responses.

(17:56) What other countries can teach the US about our response to history..

(19:37) How a Paradox Mindset can help us sit with uncomfortable truths.

(23:28) How does Dolly feel about America after writing the book?

(26:12) How do we move forward to a more just future?

(29:28) Unlearning our past is simple but not easy.

(31:49) Why is George Takei a gritty patriot?

(37:51) What is belief grief?

(39:42) How psychological distance creates a “long time ago illusion”.

(41:37) Using music to anchor us in time.

(44:52) What question Dolly would ask Max Bazerman? 

(47:54) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt discussing A More Just Future.


If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through Patreon. Writing a review of the podcast is also a great way to share your appreciation with other listeners. 


© 2022 Behavioral Grooves



Dolly’s book “A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with Our Past and Driving Social Change “: https://amzn.to/3Cgs9eq


Episode 230, How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-good-people-fight-bias/ 


Dolly’s TED Talk: “How to let go of being a "good" person — and become a better person”: https://www.ted.com/talks/dolly_chugh_how_to_let_go_of_being_a_good_person_and_become_a_better_person?language=en


Episode 280, Do We Judge Others By The Way They Speak? | Katherine Kinzler PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/judging-by-the-way-others-speak/ 


Historiography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography


Dan Gilbert “Stumbling on Happiness”: https://amzn.to/3zdV4iD 


Episode 321, Robert Livingston: How To Have A Conversation About Racism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-conversation-about-racism/


Angela Duckworth “Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance”: https://amzn.to/3suuRZh 


“Construal-Level Theory of Psychological Distance” Yaacov Trope and Nira Liberman (2011): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152826/ 


Max Bazerman “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”: https://amzn.to/3TSE7lB 


Episode 232: Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 


Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves


Musical Links 

Bob Marley “Buffalo Soldier”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FCdx7Dn0o 

Hamilton “Alexander Hamilton”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhinPd5RRJw 

In the Heights “No Me Diga”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrFH772ytzM 

Louis Armstrong “Hello Dolly”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7N2wssse14 


People don’t hate change, they hate the ambiguity that comes with change. Organizational psychologist, Dr Debbie Sutherland PhD, shares the tools we can use, both in business settings and in our personal lives, to overcome our discomfort with ambiguity and to thrive in uncertain environments. 

Debbie is an academic executive coach with both a masters degree and doctorate degree from Columbia University. She has recently written a well researched book, The Business of Ambiguity: Demystify the Unknown with Five Key Thinking and Behavior Strategies, which gives business leaders a blueprint for making better decisions in ambiguous situations. After all, ambiguous and uncertain situations aren’t going away, so we might as well figure out how to deal with them!

Thank you to all our listeners of Behavioral Grooves, we enjoy sharing unique insights with you. If you have enjoyed this episode, please consider writing a review on your podcast player. Or you can contribute financially to our work through our Patreon page.



(2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:35) Why do people hate ambiguity?

(9:40) How frustration led to Debbie’s research on ambiguity?

(11:25) The value of critical reflection.

(16:11) How journaling can help you find patterns in behavior.

(21:09) Mental models of ambiguity.

(23:02) Reflection IN action vs. reflection ON action.

(25:44) The ambiguity of THE dress.

(29:18) The Ambiguity Mindset – intuitive or learned?

(30:26) Where do leaders make mistakes with managing ambiguity? 

(38:25) What music would Debbie take to a desert island?

(43:04) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on ambiguity.



Debbie Sutherland’s book “The Business of Ambiguity: Demystify the Unknown with Five Key Thinking and Behavior Strategies”: https://amzn.to/3MFuh3W 

The Business of Ambiguity: https://www.behaviorsinbusiness.com/ 

Groups Relations Conferences: https://www.tc.columbia.edu/organization-and-leadership/social-organizational-psychology/degree-info/group-relations-conferences/ 

Gestalt Psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology 

Dr Pamela Booth research on Behavior Analysis: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Behaviour-Analysis%3A-Catalyst-for-Perspective-and-of-Booth/d90d2da66a769d574e99a5dcf6f5ced41a689ee1 

David Schon, The Reflective Practitioner: https://graysreadinggroup.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/the-reflective-practitioner-by-donald-schon/ 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Episode 323, Quit: Why We Do It Too Late and How To Get Better At It with Annie Duke: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/quit-with-annie-duke/ 

Episode 322, Chuck Wisner: Four Steps To More Effective Conversations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/more-effective-conversations/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves


Musical Links

Eminem “Fall”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfTbHITdhEI 

Vivaldi “Four Seasons”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRxofEmo3HA

Walking away is never easy. Whether it’s quitting a job, a relationship or an expedition to the peak of Mount Everest, we have a real problem with knowing when to stop. And ironically, when we do quit, we often wish we’d done it earlier. So why do we find it so difficult to quit? Annie Duke addresses the psychological reasons that prevent us from quitting, and how we can overcome them. 


Annie needs little introduction to the Behavioral Grooves Podcast as she is now the only guest to have been on the show 4 times! Most people know of her as a poker champion and bestselling author but we are lucky enough to call her a friend. One of the reasons we are so fond of Annie is her ability to use relatable stories to explain the complex concepts around decision making. She has emerged as one of the leading thinkers in the field, and is truly an intellectual powerhouse. So we are thrilled to be talking to Annie about her excellent new book, “Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away”.


We don't like ambiguity. We don't like uncertainty. We keep chugging along, trying to accrue more certainty. So that we know that it's the right decision....As Richard Thaler, Nobel laureate said to me; “the only time that we were really willing to quit is when it's not a decision anymore.”

~ Annie Duke, Episode 323


In this episode, Annie touches on key themes around quitting. We talk about the reasons we find quitting so difficult, why mantras like “quit while you’re ahead” are complete bunkum, and what techniques we can use to ensure we quit at the right time. Annie also sets the record straight on the myth that grit and quitting are opposite sides of the same coin. The concepts actually overlap.


We hope you enjoy this episode (and didn’t quit!). To help others find our podcast content, we would be grateful if you would write us a quick review on your podcast player. It helps us get noticed by other folk who are interested in podcasts about behavioral science. Thank you, and we appreciate your help.



(5:36) Annie’s story of quitting and her personal frustration.

(12:39) Grit and quit are NOT polar opposites.

(22:53) What are some of the psychological aspects that make quitting hard?

(36:31) What is the difference between loss aversion and sure loss aversion?

(42:29) Why we shouldn’t quit while we’re ahead.

(49:10) Gut feel vs rational decisions.

(53:29) What Mount Everest can teach us about when to quit.

(1:03:36) The second way to help you quit – a quitting coach.

(1:10:44) The backstory of Barry Staw.

(1:20:40) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt about quitting.


© 2022 Behavioral Grooves



Annie Duke’s Books:

“Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away”: https://amzn.to/3z47JEP 

“Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts”: https://amzn.to/3Vvaick 


Angela Duckworth book, “Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance”: https://amzn.to/3ECSLsS 

Episode 107, Rory Sutherland: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rory-sutherland-the-opposite-of-a-good-idea-is-a-good-idea/ 

Maya Shankar: A Slight Change Of Plans Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-slight-change-of-plans/id1561860622 

Episode 310, Why You Can’t Find a Cab When It’s Raining – Groove Track: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-you-cant-find-cabs-in-the-rain/ 

Barry Staw: https://haas.berkeley.edu/faculty/staw-barry/ 

Episode 277, No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope | Daniel H. Pink: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/ 

Episode 171, Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/ 


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