The GodFather of Influence, Robert Cialdini joins us again on Behavioral Grooves to share his motivation for expanding his bestselling book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion (https://amzn.to/3tyCpZ6) which now includes a completely new Seventh Principle of Influence: Unity. This additional principle can help explain our political loyalties, vaccine hesitancy and why media headlines can be so inflammatory.

Another motivation for the revised edition to the book is to include more application to the Principles of Influence. So our conversation highlights some of Bob’s advice for start-up businesses and how they can harness the principle of Social Proof. And as general advice, Bob recounts how he recently advised a teenager to be generous to others - this in turn stimulates the Rule of Reciprocity, nurturing a relationship which is mutually beneficial.

No episode of Behavioral Grooves would be complete without discussing music, even with guests we’ve interviewed before! But the theme of unity has a special significance with music and Bob highlights how music and dance bring people together and help them feel unified. Plus we get an interesting story of an experiment in France, and how a guitar case played a crucial part in one man’s luck.

We hope you enjoy our discussion with The Godfather of Influence, Robert Cialdini. Since we generously share our great content with you, perhaps you feel influenced by the Rule of Reciprocity and will become a Behavioral Grooves Patreon Member at https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves!

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Topics we Discuss on Unity with Robert Cialdini 

(3:55) Speed round 

(6:50) Ideal number of stars on your online review

(9:00) Why Cialdini wrote a new edition of Influence

(12:13) The new Seventh Principle: Unity

(15:10) How to harness social proof as a start-up 

(20:02) A new color of lies

(22:22) Principle of Unity with politics

(24:42) Tribalism and vaccine hesitancy 

(28:35) Why Trump getting vaccinated hasn’t influenced his voters

(30:50) How framing of media headlines influences our perception of the news

(33:24) The Petrified Forest Wood Principle 

(36:56) Where will the next generation of research go with Cialdini’s work?

(40:52) What advice would Cialdini give your teenager?

(48:23) Music and influence

(53:05) Grooving session 

Robert Cialdini's Books

Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion https://amzn.to/3tyCpZ6 

Pre-Suasion: A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade https://amzn.to/3eGdyOW 

Links

Episode 50: Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/

Increase Your Influence https://www.influenceatwork.com/ 

Godfather 2 Movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Godfather_Part_II 

Richard Thaler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Thaler 

Daniel Kahneman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman 

Episode 222: How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/

Donald Trump vaccine https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2021/04/20/trump-i-dont-know-why-republicans-are-vaccine-hesitant-again-floats-pfizer-conspiracy-theory/ 

Mike Pence https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/pence-set-receive-covid-vaccine-televised-appearance-n1251655 

Petrified Forest Wood Principle https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-shaping-us/201909/the-petrified-wood-principle 

Stanley Schachter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Schachter 

Jerome Singer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_E._Singer 

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

The psychology of misinformation: Why it’s so hard to correct: https://firstdraftnews.org/latest/the-psychology-of-misinformation-why-its-so-hard-to-correct/ 

How to combat fake news and  misinformation: https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-to-combat-fake-news-and-disinformation/ 

Teaching skills to combat fake news and misinformation: https://www.washington.edu/trends/teaching-skills-to-combat-fake-news-and-misinformation/ 

Episode 102: Cristina Bicchieri: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

Episode 214: Observing the Non-Obvious: How to Spot Trends Around You with Rohit Bhargava https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-non-obvious-rohit-bhargava/

Behavioral Grooves Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Linnea Gandhi is one of our favorite people to talk with and we had the pleasure of welcoming Linnea back to Behavioral Grooves recently. We last spoke to her in 2018 when she confessed to having a crush on statistics (a crush she clearly still harbors!) Since that time though, she has made a significant contribution to the infamous new book Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Daniel Kahneman, Olivier Sibony and Cass Sunstein (https://amzn.to/3heyr5r). Linnea served as the chief of staff; project managing, researching and editing the groundbreaking work on the book. When we interviewed Olivier Sibony about Linnea’s contribution, he was glowing with compliments about her:

it took someone as miraculously organized, helpful and smart, always positive and in a consistently cheerful, good mood. And I can't imagine anyone else on the planet who could have pulled this off, but Linnea did. So she's amazing.

Linnea is a researcher, teacher, and practitioner of behavioral science in business settings. And she’s obsessed with error. Studying it, fixing it, and even embracing it – to enable better decisions by individuals and organizations.

Linnea is passionate about bridging the gap between behavioral science in academia and its application in the real world. She teaches decision science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, studies it as part of her PhD at the Wharton School of Business, and consults on it through her company, BehavioralSight (https://behavioralsight.teachable.com/). This foothold in both worlds, has given Linnea the expertise for her current project which sees her teaching the topic of noise in an “edu-tainment” online video course. 

The tremendous new course (we got a sneak peak...it’s fantastic) is called Beyond Bias: How Noise May Be Drowning Out Your Decision Making Accuracy which is due to be published in June 2021. The course is purposefully designed for busy professionals who want to understand noise and how to mitigate it in organizations. Linnea and her team have meticulously planned the course videos so that they are short yet informative and entertaining. She is well aware that they are competing with Netflix for people’s attention!

Our conversation weaves in some endearing anecdotes about her personal experience of working with Kahneman, Sunstein and Sibony on the book. As well as some of the hurdles of working (and recording) from home that many of us can identify with from the last year. But Linnea’s passion for her work on noise and her enthusiasm for statistics is contagious. So much so that it has almost convinced Kurt to start reading about statistics in his spare time (almost!)

We hope you enjoy listening to Linnea’s work in behavioral science. At Behavioral Grooves, we are passionate about bringing you cutting edge interviews with the world’s best behavioral science practitioners, researchers and authors. If you would like to help support our work, please consider becoming a Behavioral Grooves Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves, we really appreciate the support.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

 

Topics We Discuss With Linnea

(3:07) Speed Round

(6:39) About Linnea’s new course on NOISE

(16:45) Why humans don’t see easily see randomness

(19:58) Working behind the scenes on NOISE

(22:48) How did the authors first collaborate on NOISE

(26:53) What finally convinced Linnea to get a PhD 

(36:12) Decision Hygiene and Linnea’s favorite technique

(41:20) Music

(43:20) Grooving Session

Links

Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment” by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r

Statistics As Principled Argument https://amzn.to/3uhRU8c 

Linnea’s Video Course on Noise (coming in June 2021) “Beyond Bias: How Noise May Be Drowning Out Your Decision Making Accuracy https://www.behavioralsight.com/online-learning 

Episode 224: Why Is Noise Worse Than Bias? Olivier Sibony Explains https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/noise-with-olivier-sibony/

Episode 38: Linnea Gandhi: Crushing On Statistics https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linnea-gandhi-crushing-on-statistics/

Daniel Kahneman https://amzn.to/2QQksId 

Cass Sunstein https://amzn.to/3uj61Kp 

Olivier Sibony https://amzn.to/3u8LBnp  

Noise: How to Overcome the High, Hidden Cost of Inconsistent Decision Making https://hbr.org/2016/10/noise 

Episode 176: Annie Duke on How to Decide https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/annie-duke-on-how-to-decide/

Tania Lombrozo (Explanations) https://psych.princeton.edu/person/tania-lombrozo 

Mona Lisa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa 

A Structured Approach to Strategic Decisions https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/a-structured-approach-to-strategic-decisions/ 

Duncan Watts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_J._Watts 

Angela Duckworth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Duckworth 

Episode 99: Katy Milkman: Behavior Change for Good https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavior-change-for-good/

Barbara Mellers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Mellers 

Maurice Schweitzer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Schweitzer 

Richard E. Nisbett “Thinking: A Memoirhttps://amzn.to/341F4A4 

Pareidolia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia 

Musical Links

Macklemore & Ryan Lewis “Thrift Shop” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK8mJJJvaes&ab_channel=MacklemoreLLC  

White Noise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMfPqeZjc2c&ab_channel=RelaxingWhiteNoiseRelaxingWhiteNoiseOfficialArtistChannel 

NOISE is set to be the next behavioral science bestseller. Daniel Kahneman, Cass Sunstein and Olivier Sibony describe noise as the unwanted variabilities in our judgments. In our exclusive interview with co-author Olivier Sibony (https://oliviersibony.com/about/) we delve into the fundamentals of noise. What different types of noise are there? Where do we find noise? Why does bias get more attention than noise? And finally, Olivier’s favorite topic; how we can mitigate noise by using decision hygiene and actively open minded thinking.

Olivier Sibony is a professor, writer and advisor specializing in the quality of strategic thinking and the design of decision processes. Olivier teaches Strategy, Decision Making and Problem Solving at HEC Paris. He is also an Associate Fellow of Saïd Business School in Oxford University. Olivier’s research centers on improving the quality of decision making by reducing the impact of behavioral biases. He is the author of numerous articles in academic and popular publications, including Before You Make That Big Decision, co-authored with Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman.

Our interview with Olivier is, as I’m sure you will agree. absolutely mesmerizing. Learning about the extent of noise in our lives from Olivier and from the new book, is truly enlightening. As their cleverly crafted catchphrase says "wherever there is judgment, there is noise, and more of it than you think."

Thankfully, the brilliant team of authors have included lots of ways to combat the noise around us. And we know that our discussion with Olivier is just the first of many that we will have around this groundbreaking topic.

Behavioral Grooves strives to bring you insight and research from world-leading experts in behavioral science, like Olivier. And we do this without the use of paid advertising. If you would like to support our continued ad-free work, please consider becoming a Behavioral Grooves patreon by visiting https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves thank you.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Topics We Discuss

  • (4:38) Welcome to Olivier Sibony and speed round questions
  • (7:51) The difference between bias and noise
  • (11:32) Why has bias received more attention than noise?
  • (14:15) Where noise can be found?
  • (22:32) What is Decision Hygiene?
  • (26:35) How to implement mitigation techniques against noise?
  • (29:32) Actively Open Minded Thinking and what it means for leadership and education
  • (38:45) What are the different types of noise?
  • (44:18) The role of moral philosophical foundations and noise
  • (49:28) Music 
  • (54:06) Grooving Session and Bonus Track

Olivier Sibony’s Books

Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r

You're About to Make a Terrible Mistake: How Biases Distort Decision-Making and What You Can Do to Fight Them https://amzn.to/3u8LBnp 

Links

Olivier Sibony https://oliviersibony.com/about/ 

Languedoc wine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languedoc-Roussillon_wine 

Rhones Valley wine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh%C3%B4ne_wine 

Dr Itiel Dror https://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucjtidr/ 

Apgar Checklist https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2015/10/the-apgar-score 

John Maynard Keynes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes 

Max Bazerman “Better, Not Perfect: A Realist's Guide to Maximum Sustainable Goodness” https://amzn.to/3f4vvqm 

Bentham's Utilitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism 

Kant's Deontological Approach https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-deontological/ 

Noise: How to Overcome the High, Hidden Cost of Inconsistent Decision Making https://hbr.org/2016/10/noise 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Musical Links 

Yo-Yo Ma cellist “Bach Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prweT95Mo0 

Billy Evans “My Foolish Heart” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2LFVWBmoiw 

Keith Garrett “I Grew Up Today” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PerFVC6KbU 

Oscar Peterson “C Jam Blues” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJhHn-TuDY 

More Great Episodes Of Behavioral Grooves 

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets   https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

Episode 211: A Thousand Thanks: A Lifetime of Experiments and Gratitude with AJ Jacobs  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-thousand-thanks-with-aj-jacobs/

Episode 204: How Shellye Archambeau Flies Like an Eagle  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shellye-archambeau-like-an-eagle/

Episode 176: Annie Duke on How to Decide https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/annie-duke-on-how-to-decide/

Episode 147: Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/

Episode 38: Linnea Gandhi: Crushing On Statistics https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linnea-gandhi-crushing-on-statistics/

 

Allison Zelkowitz seized the opportunity to use behavioral science at Save The Children to make a big impact on global projects. By building a world-first “nudge unit” within the organization, her story is an inspiring example of how application of behavioral science principles can make a real difference in the world. 

Allison Zelkowitz is the Founder and ‎Director of the Center for Utilizing Behavioral Insights for Children (CUBIC) https://www.savethechildren.net/cubic, part of the international nonprofit organization Save the Children. CUBIC is the first behavioural insights initiative or "nudge unit" in the world to focus on the most marginalised children’s rights and welfare. At CUBIC, they focus on nudging the behaviours and actions of decision-makers, educators, families and communities, so more children get the best possible start in life. 

Ultimately, Allison is well aware that changing behavior isn’t about telling people what to do, it’s about facilitating ways for them to change: understanding the barriers and effectively removing them. The projects of CUBIC are not just inspiring, they are also life-saving. Projects such as 

  • Nudging children in Thailand to wear bicycle helmets, 
  • Encouraging breastfeeding in Laos, and 
  • Increasing playful teaching methods to enhance children’s learning in Bangladesh. 

In our chat with Allison, she reveals the vast personal dedication that it took to enable CUBIC to be formed. We love that Allison first carved her interest in behavioral science by listening to podcasts in her spare time (Allison has since become a Behavioral Grooves Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves  - thank you for your support!) But within the space of 14 months, her idea had grown into an international collaboration with other leading behavioral scientists, a huge fundraising effort, and eventually to the global launch of CUBIC in April 2020.

In this episode you will learn:

  • (11:05) What inspired Allison to start CUBIC at Save The Children International.
  • (15:03) Why just giving people good information doesn't change their behavior.
  • (19:45) An overview of setting up a Nudge unit.
  • (23:55) The steps Allison took to build CUBIC in 14 months.
  • (30:18) About the current project in the Philippines texting parents to encourage them to positively engage with their children.
  • (41:54) Upcoming project on increasing vaccination uptake in the global south.
  • (43:59) Music Allison enjoys.
  • (48:58) Grooving Session and Bonus Track.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Links

CUBIC - Save The Children International: https://www.savethechildren.net/cubic

Save The Children: https://www.savethechildren.org/?cid=Referral::POPUPwww.savethechildren.net::123199&utm_source=sciweb&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=member_popup 

CUBIC: Save The Children initiative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCy9B-k2044 

Eliud Kipchoge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge 

United States Parachute Association: https://uspa.org/ 

Allison's Blog on Skydiving with Behavioral Science: https://www.patreon.com/posts/behavioral-in-32008134 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Fadi Makki, Founder of Nudge Lebannon: https://nudgelebanon.org/our_team/fadi/ 

The Busara Center for Behavioral Economics: https://www.busaracenter.org/ 

Faisal Naru, OECD: https://www.oecd.org/gov/behavioural-insights.htm 

Josh Martin, Ideas 42: https://www.ideas42.org/blog/incorporating-behavioral-science-cash-transfer-programs-changing-lives/ 

The Behavioral Insights Team: https://www.bi.team/  

Dr Susanna Loeb, The Annenberg Institute, Brown University: https://annenberg.brown.edu/publications/one-step-time-effects-early-literacy-text-messaging-program-parents-preschoolers 

The Lantern Group: https://lanterngroup.com/

Behavioral Alchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/  

Musical Links 

Hamilton Soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLV78EPlNCZ5B1vHkRicCAdpbDqZ1DpLgM 

Journey “Don’t Stop Believing”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs 

Video for Allison’s wedding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD38az2cUsg 

Other Episodes You Will Enjoy

Episode 202: How Chaning Jang Works Around Not Being WEIRD https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-chaning-jang-works-around-not-being-weird/

Episode 209: GAABS and Improving the Future for Every Applied Behavioral Scientist https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/improving-the-future-for-every-applied-behavioral-scientist/

Episode 190: Cornelia Walther on POZE: Pause, Observe, Zoom in, and Experience https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cornelia-walther-on-poze-pause-observe-zoom-in-and-experience/

Episode 168: The Stages of Grief, Pandemics and the Psychology of Protests with Nicole Fisher https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-stages-of-grief-pandemics-and-the-psychology-of-protests-with-nicole-fisher/

Episode 165: Shlomi Ron: Visual Storying Telling In a Time of Crisis https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shlomi-ron-visual-storying-telling-in-a-time-of-crisis/

Episode 146: Covid-19 Crisis: Mariel Beasley on Increasing Short Term Savings During the Crisis https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/covid-19-crisis-mariel-beasley-on-increasing-short-term-savings-during-the-crisis/

Episode 139: Iris Tzafrir: A Kind Word https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/iris-tzafrir-a-kind-word/

Episode 73: Terry Esau: Carbon Fiber Therapist https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/terry-esau-carbon-fiber-therapist/

Episode 19: The Teaspoon Hustle – Part 1 with Rob Burnet https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-teaspoon-hustle-part-1-with-rob-burnett/

Episode 20: The Teaspoon Hustle – Part 2 with Rob Burnet https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-teaspoon-hustle-part-2-with-rob-burnett/

Episode 221: Donating Our Money Is Irrational, So Why Do We Do It? Tim Kachuriak Explains Our Motivations https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-we-donate-our-money/

Episode 1: Behavioral Grooves 1: James Heyman, Phd https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavioral-grooves-1-james-heyman-phd/

Episode 222: How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/

 

In this episode, we are delighted to welcome Shankar Vedantam, host of the wildly popular podcast, Hidden Brain and esteemed author of the new book Useful Delusions (https://amzn.to/2PUkzlv)

Before reading Shankar’s book and interviewing him for this podcast we were, as Shankar describes himself, card-carrying rationalists. We were firmly in the camp of believing rational, scientific findings and believing that lies and deception are harmful to ourselves and to our communities. However, Shankar walks us through a compelling argument, that paradoxically, self-deception actually plays a pivotal role in our happiness and well-being.

In our discussion with Shankar we cover:

  • (6:38) Speed round questions.
  • (11:04) The difference between self delusions being useful and being harmful.
  • (16:23) How nations are a delusional construct.
  • (23:00) Awareness of self-delusions and how daily gratitudes can shift our perspective of the world. 
  • (25:56) Shankar’s personal story of delusional thinking. 
  • (29:58) The role emotions play in our mood and delusions.
  • (35:23) How avoidance of delusional thinking is a sign of privilege.
  • (37:30) Why our perceptions play an important role in understanding delusions.
  • (44:36) Shankar’s unique approach to conspiracy theories.
  • (52:28) What music Shankar has been listening to during COVID.
  • (52:15) Grooving Session and Bonus Track with Kurt and Tim.

We really hope you find Shankar’s unique insight on how delusions are useful as compelling as we did. If you’re a regular Behavioral Grooves listener, please consider supporting us through Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves). Thank you! 

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

 

Books 

  • The Hidden Brain: How Our Unconscious Minds Elect Presidents, Control Markets, Wage Wars and Save Our Lives https://amzn.to/3e1qgWY

Links

Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r 

Richard Dawkins https://richarddawkins.net/ 

Mahabharata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata 

Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon 

 

Other Episodes We Talk About

The Myth of the “Relationship Spark” with Logan Ury (featuring a guest appearance by Christina Gravert, PhD): https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-myth-of-the-relationship-spark-with-logan-ury-featuring-a-guest-appearance-by-christina-gravert-phd/

Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/ 

Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/

John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-dante-coffee-and-the-unconscious-mind/

Linda Thunstrom: Are Thoughts and Prayers Empty Gestures to Suffering Disaster Victims? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-thunstrom-are-thoughts-and-prayers-empty-gestures-to-suffering-disaster-victims/ 

Tim Kachuriak is the founder and Chief Innovation and Optimization Officer for NextAfter (https://www.nextafter.com/), a fundraising research lab and consulting firm that works with businesses, nonprofits, and NGOs to help them grow their resource capacity.

By his own admission, Tim is not a behavioral scientist, but what we love about Tim’s work is that he is using knowledge and research from the world of behavioral science and applying it to improve the efficiency of gift giving for nonprofit organizations. And not only does he use behavioral science techniques, he tests the theories in the nonprofit sector and generously publishes the findings on the NextAfter website (https://www.nextafter.com/research/). 

In our conversation with Tim, he underscores the need for thinking about value proposition, a term widely used in the digital marketing world, but rarely thought of in terms of nonprofit organizations. He argues that potential donors are constantly weighing up the perceived value vs. the perceived cost of donating their money.

Tim also brings up the idea of reducing friction for donors: how can the giving experience be improved to make donating money a more seamless transaction. And we couldn’t help but see the parallels with the infamous new behavioral science book NOISE coming out later this month (Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment (https://amzn.to/3heyr5r) by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021).

There are many reasons why we donate to nonprofits; emotional reward, belonging, anger, guilt (or as Tim positively reframes it - gratitude!). Understanding these motivations is a huge part of Tim’s work and why, as behavioral scientists, we are fascinated to understand the research he has conducted around donations. 

Edit

Hey groovers, just wanted to let you know that somehow, at 29:28 mins of the podcast we ended up cutting Tim’s response to the Susan G Komen question and can’t find it on the cutting room floor…sorry about that.

What he answered was that it is important to look at the scale that these organizations work at and that sometimes spending 50% on marketing to raise a $100 million is more effective and can drive a larger change than only spending 10% on marketing, but only raising $10 million.  We then went in and asked about how the pandemic has impacted giving.*

We hope you enjoy our discussion with Tim Kachuriak and if you are a regular Behavioral Grooves listener, perhaps you feel motivated to donate to our work by becoming a Behavioral Grooves Patreon Member (https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves).

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Topics

(0:06) Introduction to our guest, Tim Kachuriak

(3:50) Speed Round Questions

(5:57) Why do People Give?

(9:41) The Principle of Reciprocity

(12:10) Effective Messaging and Value Proposition 

(22:25) Reducing Friction

(34:48) Music

(40:27) Grooving Session

(58:44) Bonus Track

Links

NextAfter (https://www.nextafter.com/)

NextAfter Research To Grow Generosity (https://www.nextafter.com/research/)

Institute for Sustainable Philanthropy (https://www.philanthropy-institute.org.uk/) 

Roger Dooley: Friction and Engagement (https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/roger-dooley-friction-and-engagement/)

Susan G. Komen (https://www.komen.org/)

Dan Pallotta, TED - The Way We Think About Charity Is Dead Wrong (https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallotta_the_way_we_think_about_charity_is_dead_wrong?language=en) 

John Hopkins University, Coronavirus Resource Centre (https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/) 

Rotary Club (https://www.rotary.org/) 

Salvation Army (https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/) 

Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment (https://amzn.to/3heyr5r) by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 

Phish, Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City on 10.30.2010 (https://phish.net/setlists/phish-october-30-2010-boardwalk-hall-atlantic-city-nj-usa.html) 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves)

Musical Links

Billy Joel “Scenes from An Italian Restaurant” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxx8IWIvKg0) 

Phish “Whole lotta love” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6XcIOGWUhY) 

Other Episodes We Talk About

Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin (https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/) 

Linda Thunstrom: Are Thoughts and Prayers Empty Gestures to Suffering Disaster Victims? (https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-thunstrom-are-thoughts-and-prayers-empty-gestures-to-suffering-disaster-victims/)

Our guest, Jon Levy, is arguably one of the most influential behavioral scientists in the world. Over 10 years ago, Jon founded The Influencers Dinner, a secret dining experience for industry leaders ranging from Olympians, Nobel laureates, executives, to musicians. Over the course of the last decade, these dinners have developed into a wide community of influential people. 

Our opening speed round with Jon did not disappoint. We learn his unique perspective on which Star Trek Captains was the best, and the surprising answer to who his dream guest was at one of his dinners. 

In our discussion with Jon, he shares the secrets behind his influential approach: what motivated him to start this novel idea, how he developed it and the key steps behind the ongoing success of the community that he has curated. 

Jon’s second book, “You’re Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence” https://amzn.to/2RmlUlA is released on May 11, 2021. Which follows his hugely successful first book: “The 2 AM Principle: Discover the Science of Adventure https://amzn.to/3eS3p0m. We had the privilege of previewing his latest book for this interview and we were blown away by Jon’s unique approach to cultivating human connections through trust and community. 

Of course, we discuss what music Jon has been listening to at home and we are surprised to learn what has recently sparked his musical interest. Jon has found that through his Influence Dinners, he has hosted a lot of his childhood pop idols, which he still enjoys listening to.

Thanks for listening and thank you for taking a minute to join the others who have already left us a review. 

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Jon Levy's Books

You're Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence https://amzn.to/2RmlUlA

The 2 AM Principle: Discover the Science of Adventure https://amzn.to/3eS3p0m  

Links

Jon Levy https://www.jonlevytlb.com/ 

Peter Cullen (voice of Optimus Prime) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Cullen 

James T. Kirk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_T._Kirk 

Jean-Luc Picard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Picard 

Neil deGrasse Tyson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson 

Oprah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oprah_Winfrey 

Beyonce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonc%C3%A9 

Sir Richard Branson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Branson 

Stephen Hawking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking 

Disney https://www.disney.com/ 

Mark Zuckerberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg 

Nicholas Christakis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Christakis 

James H. Fowler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Fowler 

The Spread of Obesity in a Large Social Network over 32 Years 

Christakis and Fowler (2007) https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa066082 

Nike Run Club https://www.nike.com/gb/nrc-app 

Bill Nye the Science Guy https://billnye.com/ 

Parkour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour 

The Daily Show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Show 

The New York Times: Want to Meet Influential New Yorkers? Invite Them to Dinner

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/10/fashion/want-to-meet-influential-new-yorkers-invite-them-to-dinner.html 

SNVTA - Ventral tegmental area of the brain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventral_tegmental_area 

Davos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davos 

Bill Gates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates 

Angela Merkel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel 

TED https://www.ted.com/ 

My Octopus Teacher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher 

United States Navy SEAL selection and training https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEAL_selection_and_training 

The IKEA Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect#:~:text=The%20IKEA%20effect%20is%20a,of%20furniture%20that%20require%20assembly

Common Biases & Heuristics https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit?usp=sharing 

Brené Brown https://brenebrown.com/about/ 

 Adam Grant https://www.adamgrant.net/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Musical Links 

Bridgerton Soundtrack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rowHZd7-F1U&ab_channel=LoopedSongs 

Vitamin String Quartet “Thank u, next” (Ariana Grande) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmljfYBkGVg 

John Williams “The Imperial March from The Empire Strikes Back” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7HF4JG1pOg&list=PL2yW2adfehiV0-wSa784KIT1ZJ5_YEVjd&index=2&ab_channel=JohnWilliamsVEVO 

Tribe Called Quest “Electric Relaxation“ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHRnvjCkTsw&ab_channel=TribeCalledQuestVEVO 

Biggie Smalls (The Notorious B.I.G.) “Big Poppa” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phaJXp_zMYM 

Maroon Five “Sugar” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09R8_2nJtjg&ab_channel=Maroon5VEVO 

98 Degrees “I Do (Cherish You)” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09R8_2nJtjg&ab_channel=Maroon5VEVO 

Cowboy Junkies “Sweet Jane” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa9nN3G2CSg&t=173s 

The Tragically Hip “Ahead by a Century” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE2joQsWXJg 

Topics

(4:46) Speed Round Questions

(9:03) Power vs Influence

(13:00) Why do we want influence?

(20:21) Jon discusses his new book

(25:41) Jon became influential

(32:11) How to create a community

(37:03) How trust is made and how to trigger it

(41:00) Music

(1:13:11) Bonus Track and Groove Idea

Other Episodes You’ll Enjoy

Dessa: The Attention Shepherd On The Curious Act Of Being Deeply Human (Episode 208) https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dessa-being-deeply-human/ 

Mapping the Influence of Corporate Cultures – Silke Brittain (Episode 12) https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/mapping-the-influence-of-corporate-cultures-silke-brittain/

Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin (Episode 50) https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/

In this episode we are thrilled to be discussing our two favorite topics: human behavior and music. We learn that music, more than any other activity, can help lift our mood, during COVID. Our guests Pablo Ripollés PhD and Ernest Mas Herrero have spent years studying how the brain responds to rewards, learning and memory. Early in the pandemic, they decided to conduct research on a long list of activities that people were doing at home to manage their stress and increase the pleasure in their lives. While a number of the activities were found to help with mental health, the research overwhelmingly showed that engaging with music was the best way to lift your mood.

We have a really engaging conversation with Pablo and Ernest about their research findings on wellbeing and music. They believe that because listening to music is a passive activity and is so accessible, or “fun and free” as they call it, everyone can experience pleasure from it. And it’s not just listening to music; dancing, singing or playing music are all beneficial.  We also learn that the best type of music to engage with is whatever music you really enjoy: “It will be beneficial as long as it is pleasurable.”

The questionnaire Pablo and Ernest discuss in the podcast is the Barcelona Music Reward Questionnaire http://brainvitge.org/z_oldsite/bmrq.php. It will take you only a few minutes to find out about your individual sensitivity to musical reward. And you can also read Pablo and Ernest’s full research article: “Rock ’n’ Roll but not Sex or Drugs: Music is negatively correlated to depressive symptoms during the COVID-19 pandemic via reward-related mechanisms” https://psyarxiv.com/x5upn/. 

Listen in to find out more from Pablo and Ernest about how music can benefit your mental wellbeing. And If you’d like to support the work we do at Behavioral Grooves bringing you interesting research insights, please consider becoming a Patreon member at https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Topics

(0:06) Introduction

(5:20) Speed Round Questions

(8:44) Research Insights with Pablo and Ernest

(36:50) Grooving Session

(50:26) Bonus Track

Musical Links 

Dropkick Murphys https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcIRZxNH7xcEt1fu4pfqFRg 

Rumba https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrsK48Bp6T8 

Catalan music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjJnF95TWN8 

Zoo https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBh82sG2OKv1J6Ij43mdFiw 

Depeche Mode https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCM-CWGUijAC-8idv6k6Fygw 

Aretha Franklin “Think” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYnevHibaI 

Links

“Rock ’n’ Roll but not Sex or Drugs: Music is negatively correlated to depressive symptoms during the COVID-19 pandemic via reward-related mechanisms” Herrero et al (2020): https://psyarxiv.com/x5upn/ 

“Neural correlates of specific musical anhedonia” Martínez-Molina et al (2016): https://www.pnas.org/content/113/46/E7337

Pablo Ripollés: https://as.nyu.edu/faculty/pablo-ripolles.html 

Ernest Mas Herrero: https://orcid.org/0000-0002-3607-8489 

Jamón ibérico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam%C3%B3n_ib%C3%A9rico 

Lionel Messi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Messi 

Michael Jordan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan 

Roger Federer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer 

“Goal Gradient Theory” Kivetz et al (2006): https://home.uchicago.edu/ourminsky/Goal-Gradient_Illusionary_Goal_Progress.pdf 

Robert Zatorre, PhD https://www.mcgill.ca/neuro/robert-zatorre-phd

Neomi Singer, PhD https://neuroscience-innovation.org/music-to-my-brain-neomi-singer 

Laura Ferreri, University of Lyon https://emc.univ-lyon2.fr/laura-ferreri-785895.kjsp 

Michael McPhee, NYU https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/people/michael-mcphee  

Hedonia and anhedonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia 

Barcelona Music Reward Questionnaire http://brainvitge.org/z_oldsite/bmrq.php 

Spotify https://www.spotify.com/us/ 

The Ikea Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect#:~:text=The%20IKEA%20effect%20is%20a,of%20furniture%20that%20require%20assembly

The Singing Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution 

Music of the Civil Rights Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_songs

Baroque Music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApSoNBu2wt8 

Agatha Christie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Christie 

Other Podcast Episodes

Dessa: The Attention Shepherd on the Curious Act of Being Deeply Human”

https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dessa-being-deeply-human/ 

The Counterintuitive Persuasion of The Catalyst with Jonah Berger

https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-catalyst-with-jonah-berger/ 

Chris Matyszczyk: Listening to Music While You Work 

https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/chris-matyszczyk-listening-to-music-while-you-work/

Covid-19 Crisis: Emotional Impact of WFH with Liz Fosslien

https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/c-19-crisis-emotional-impact-of-wfh-with-liz-fosslien/ 

Jonah Berger episode: The Counterintuitive Persuasion of The Catalyst with Jonah Bergerhttps://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-catalyst-with-jonah-berger/ 

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